The Eternal struggle - a PvE Dark Zone?

[quinch1199]

Just as it did with Division 1, there is, again, an apparently massive call (or very vocal minority) for a PvE Dark Zone.

Let's get this straight at the start. I am an almost completely dedicated PvE player, my Clan is 99% PvE, 99% of the players even flatly refuse to even go into the DZ's. However, I don't see what possible values there would be to changing any or all of the DZ's in Divison 2 into PvE only experiences??

I am willing to learn, to understand the reasons behind this wave of opinion. I have thus far seen no really compelling arguments for this, the main argument being "best gear is in DZ, why do I have to PvP to get it" and for me and my experiences with the DZ's in Div1 and Div2 this argument doesn't hold any water. 

Firstly, "best gear", perhaps you do, BUT if you play PvE, why do you need ultra high spec gear? You're fighting Ai! The game gets tough but not that tough and I find this continued push by many gamers for an "EZ-Mode button" actually insulting. 

Then we have "Why do I have to PvP to get the gear?", well..have you BEEN into the DZ?? There is no forced PvP! The game has multiple mechanisms to warn you of a player going or being a Rogue...also, if you can't sneak around unseen in the DZ's then you are playing this game wrong on fundemental level! Also now you don't even have to extract to get loot and i've found the drop rate of uncontaminated loot really high (which I find a little odd).

However, bottom line is, i've found hardly anything in the DZ worth more than I can get in the LZ. There.. I said it...perhaps I can get more faster in the DZ but, really, its not that much different. I know this is changing but they've already said 515 gear WILL drop in the LZ via an as yet unannounced way. 

As I said, I am willing to LEARN and would love someone to sway my opinion but from what I've read so far the call for a PvE DZ is just another call by gamers unwilling to learn how to play a TACTICAL game tactically and wanting an "EZ-Mode". PvE is already nicely balanced, if Heroic missions are too hard, then just don't play missions on that level. 

The only, ONLY argument I've thought of for this is for Solo players...and yes, I can see that, a solo player wanting to become semi-Godlike so they can beat missions on harder difficulties with a view to collecting more rare gear for collection purposes BUT The Division has never really been a Solo game. I hate to say it, I played most of Division 1 solo, but its clear from all the co-operative options in these games that they're co-op focused multiplayer games, NOT solo adventures. Solo gameplay is "possible" but isn't and shouldn't be the focus. Clearly the game wasn't developed with solo play as its core. That was the choice they made and people, perhaps, should be willing to let that be.

This is where I put the "change my mind" meme but I dont have one to hand. Can anyone change my mind?

Sorry for this sounding like a rant but I fail to see why a chunk of the PvE community...my community...would try to destroy a big part of the game we all enjoy or start what amounts to a civil war within the community. 

 

[Prvt3Jok3r]

I saw this argument on Reddit. I agree with you.

I think a PvE only DZ is an absolutely dumb and terrible idea. Other than extractions, it would make the DZ basically the same as any other area in the game. I don't see the point in that.

The DZ was one of the ideas that attracted me to the game in the lead up to its release. I loved the idea of players being able to attack anyone at any moment. Some of my best memories and most enjoyable times in the first game were in the DZ. Part of what makes extractions so much fun and exciting is the possibility of getting attacked by other players. It's tense. 

The DZ was always intended to be a major part of the game. Massive didn't hide this or surprise people with it at launch. From the early announcement trailers all the way through alphas, betas, and launch it was pretty clear what the DZ was and that it was going to be a significant portion of the game. They even said from early on that it was going to be the place to get the best gear. 

Anyone who bought the game and was surprised by this wasn't paying attention. It was the same with the sequel. If you bought the game with no intention of going into the DZ, that's fine. But don't ask the developers to change their plans to accommodate you. This idea that the developers should add a new DZ that isn't really a DZ for players that don't want to go into the DZ is a complaint I would file in my 'tough shit' folder.

Honestly, there were only two things I didn't like about the Dark Zone in the first game at launch. The first was the people that would intentionally walk in front of your line of fire to make you go rogue. They addressed that eventually with the whole idea of you having to declare rogue status, but I kind of hate that too. No real good solution for that problem. 

The second was the amount of experience you would lose dying as a rogue. I think that made people less likely to go rogue, which made the experience less fun.

I'm sure the raid is going to drop gear that will match the DZ level of gear, so those PvE only players should be satisfied then. It's unfortunate that the raid was delayed, but I also want them to take whatever time they need to get it right. I don't want to be able to destroy an APC through a wall like the first Incursion last time. 

 

[Oh. daesu]

[  From: PVE player who likes working the DZ solo. I don't complain, as I enjoyed it. Though, stopped DZing thru TD1.2/1.3 due to the gap, until fixed. Only WT2. But DZ 50 .]

My understanding:

• The only drop difference in the DZ is Pestilence. (which is said to be the worst exotic; as it stands)
  
• Smaller, separate DZ zones makes PVEers feel they are being forced into PVP situations.
  
  And, PVPers feel they losing gank zones (a.k.a. real pvp) because there is three DZes that PVEers can switched between to avoid being ganked.
  

[*]Lots of mobs mean you had to watch your back when clearing landmarks. (Taking up position on the edge of a landmark to wear down the NPCs, will most likely result in at least one mob turning up; this has been noticeably reduced in a previous patch.)

[*]DZ is said to be dropping GS515 in WT5, or maybe that's just PTS. (correct me if I'm wrong)

• 
  GS 515 can be achieved via Re-calibration. (correct me if I'm wrong)
  

[*]PVEers worried their builds are being nerfed because of DZ balancing (TD2 was said to keep these separate to avoid the TD1 issue)

• 
  PVPers are worried their builds are being nerfed because of PVE balancing
  

Look, those of us who played TD1 through its trials and tribulations will know how various parts of the community have felt. Most of it is over sensitivity over past issues. A lot of these concerns have had a valid basis back in the early TD1 patches. Some of it is heavy dose of whinging. The rest, as a player who hasn't reached WT5, I don't quite follow.

They said that talents would be separate between PVP & PVE and the devs are still saying that.  So, these nerfs in the PTS.... balancing for both? Players are very sensitive to nerfs, so I can't say.

Also, remember in the TD1 Underground release they introduced the G36? Right from the start the devs thought the G36 was OPed. Players loved it. Then they nerfed it later (duh!  ; that was useless pain thru a lack of foresight). Players mainly complain because they felt the G36 evened up the odds against the bullet sponges. Rightly or wrongly, they felt the one thing that helped them was taken away, instead of the fixing the bullet sponges. Which is how some people are feeling now?! (Rightly or wrongly). And others feel they have prepared the perfect build for TU3 which these nerfs have ruined.

 

[quinch1199]

The only drop difference in the DZ is Pestilence. (which is said to be the worst exotic; as it stands)

Yup, have had two so far, one was 2.4k damage, other was 1.2k damage!! Plus side is deconstructing gives two exotic materials for rebuilding other exotics. 

Smaller, separate DZ zones makes PVEers feel they are being forced into PVP situations

The reality is vastly different from the perception. The zones are smaller but limited to 12 players max. Since launch I have literally bumped into ONE other player. Granted I intentionally patrol the DZ's in full stealth mode, hugging corners, checking streets are clear before crossing etc. but its a month! The one player was just clearing landmarks and didn't bother me at all. 

Lots of mobs mean you had to watch your back when clearing landmarks

This is no different than in the LZ when you bump into a supply convoy, then another convoy comes along from the other direction...and then you aggro a nearby Territory Control area. However, its EASIER as Normalisation bumps up your stats to the max!! Ai die much faster in the DZ. 

DZ is said to be dropping GS515 in WT5

Yes, it will...but in one of the last SOTG's they said 515 gear will drop outside the DZ. They just didn't say where, we're all assuming its a Raid thing.

PVEers worried their builds are being nerfed because of DZ balancing

This is a persistant myth, similar to vaccines causing autism. PvE and PvP are calculated on seperate tables, modified seperately etc. This is one reason for Normalisation in the DZ's and PvP modes. In a live game, if your build is seriously overpowered..guess what...it gets nerfed as its breaking the game. Players worrying about this need to get over it. It isn't an offline game. In any modern game, mechanics will always be corrected for gameplay reasons and to make gameplay both a challenge and fair. 

 

[quinch1199]

Players mainly complain because they felt the G36 evened up the odds against the bullet sponges

See, THIS is an argument I can defend. Particularly in Div2 we were initially treated to a really nice balance of MMO style mechanics but also feeling guns actually did damage.

Until you got to about level 20.

Then it started to and continues to feel and play exactly like Div1. THIS, more than anything, I feel Massive need to look long and hard at. I have no real answers for it within the context of the game unfortunately but its a pity that lovely feeling isn't with us past a certain level of gameplay.

Unfortuantely, its not an argument against rebalancing or for making a DZ PvE. Its an argument to rebuild the game mechanics though, and a damn strong one!

 

[Oh. daesu]

The GS 515 might be misleading. I think they'll nolonger have 515 but show as 500. May be... not clear to me yet. This is because they are introducing a Recalibration Score (value upto 100).

So you'll have a GS 500 item that can be recalibrated upto a score of 100. (This is appears to be an attempt to change the player's perspective of loss of attributes values in Recalibration. E.g 10% buff becomes a 6%. I guess devs have their "pie" Issue in balancing and this new perspective might make players less cranky without changing the pie budget/balance.)

I'm wondering if that means the old 515 will drop as GS 500 but their Recalibration Score (budget) will have already been partially/fully consumed, so limiting the recalibration that can effectively be done compared to a regular GS-500/RS-0. If that makes any sense..



Edit: missed my point lol

I think this is also a way to avoid the perception that PVE players are being forced into the DZ for the high end drops. Which wasn't really the case, anyway.